Photo by Scott Graham
Fellow Bereans,
I received a lot of comments and emails recently about the lack of warning on dubious artist theology pumped out from artists such as Hillsong, Elevation Worship, and Jesus Culture. I’m considering adding an “artist profile” section to The Berean Test with a link to review containing said artist as part of reviews. The page would include a small blurb about the artist and a “Berean Test”-like examination of artist theology. This is meant for new and unsuspecting Christians who don’t know about the dangers of these artists’ teachings. There are some who believe that it’s not enough to instruct others to do their own due diligence, that I should warn others on this website.
I wanted to open the floor for discussion on this possible update to The Berean Test. What do you think?
Updates:
04/29/2021 – Thank you to those who participated! I closed the comments and will announce changes on Sunday.
Comments
JM
All for it! Just try and keep things as objective as possible with documented examples of what artist / churches have said, and where that does (or does not) line up with scripture. You will probably run into some denominational differences, so perhaps start by establishing what positions you are using as “orthodox”?
Vince Wright
JM,
Thanks! Yes, If I go through with this, I plan to cite my sources, including artists’ websites, interviews, and news articles.
-Vince Wright
Melissa A
I, for one, would love to see this! It’s becoming increasingly difficult to find resources I trust to truly evaluate adherence to God’s Word vs those compromising to trendy/worldly views. While I realize this is a time commitment for you that takes time away from song reviews, I would welcome any additional feedback you could provide. I would also love to hear of any resources you trust to evaluate Christian preachers and authors as well. Sadly there seem to be many popular names who have gone astray lately. Thank you for you dedication to this worthy cause!
Neal Cruco
I do not believe that this suggestion is within the scope of the website. As the About page says, “The Berean Test is about applying critical thinking skills to compare lyrical content from popular Christian artists against the Bible for accuracy.” Evaluating the general theology of the artists is not within this scope.
To give an example, Bethel’s unbiblical teachings are not relevant to evaluating the lyrics that they write, unless said teaching shows up in said lyrics. To give another example, it is good and right and within this site’s scope to mention when a song’s lyrics could be interpreted as supporting the Word of Faith heresy. But it would be outside of the scope to evaluate every artist for Word of Faith endorsement that is separate from their lyrics.
Also, there is no substitute for staying alert for false teaching at all times. (1 Peter 5:8) The Berean Christians carefully examined Paul’s teaching to see if it aligned with Scripture- Christians today have no excuse for not doing the same. New Christians should be taught to do this, not just told who they should and shouldn’t trust.
If you want to expand this site’s scope to evaluating artists, that’s your decision. It wouldn’t even be a wrong one, in my opinion (just unnecessary). But I think you should keep your current course and review lyrics only, while encouraging your readers to not accept an artist’s teaching without holding it up to Scripture.
Vince Wright
Neal,
Thank you for your comments!
Yes, I intend to continue to review songs as I always have: Biblical examination of lyrics without any consideration to artist theology. Should I decide to do this, it will be a separate project that will live within a wider scope of The Berean Test, but not individual reviews.
-Vince Wright
Steve Kuhn
Vince, I agree with Neal. This is outside the scope of your website – as it presents itself today. If you want to add another layer of information that is up to you. However, I’m afraid it would also add a lot more work to your reviews.
Vince Wright
Steve,
Thank you for your concern!
I’m not sure if you’ve been tracking this wonderful open discussion; However, below is my latest proposal:
1) Add additional text to the current red text that appears in each review.
2) Add a new section to the “Resources” page that contains links, articles, and videos to artist beliefs and glowing/balanced examination of those beliefs.
[Start proposal]
Red text (after review introduction and before the start of each review):
Note to new users: This is a different kind of review site! Read About the Berean Test and Evaluation Criteria prior to reading this review. Also, I strongly encourage you to examine the blessings and potential dangers in this artist’s theology by visiting Resources.
Sample text (on Resources page):
Websites to Examine Artist Theology
These articles, videos, and blog posts contain artist beliefs and balanced opinions on artist theology. Though outside the scope of Berean Test reviews, it is important to research potentially dangerous and unbiblical doctrine taught by artists. It is equally important to fact-check articles, videos, and blog posts that criticize artist teachings. This will help you make an informed decision on supporting/not supporting these artists, including song purchases, royalties, donations, and attending their services. I’ll continue to expand this list as time permits.
Hillsong:
–Statement of Faith – Contains Hillsong’s core beliefs.
–Hillsong’s vision statement – Provides information on the type of church Hillsong envisions.
–The Beat – Provides a balanced overview of Hillsong, Elevation Worship, and Bethel Music released by former worship pastor Allen Parr. Allen Parr talks about the blessings and dangers that these artists provide. Keep in mind that not everything he says applies to all three groups.
–Got Questions – Another balanced overview of Hillsong’s theology with points not mentioned in Allen Parr’s video.
[End proposal]
-Vince Wright
racefangurl
I feel it more appropriate to put links to other sites’ evaluation of the artist’s theology. This site’s always been about the songs themselves. However, when a poll includes a song or songs from Hillsong, Elevation Worship or Bethel Music/Jesus Culture, include the links with the post of that poll if you feel it important to guide people to the truth of the artist’s theology or if their theology does creep into the song of theirs reviewed at a given time, warn of it that way.
Vince Wright
racefangurl,
Thank you for your comments! This a wonderful idea! I recently created a Resources page, so I can expand that to include links to websites/videos/etc. that cover artist theology. I could also link to the Resources page from the Evaluation Criteria page, for newcomers to the site.
-Vince Wright
Jodi Schulteis
Your timing is incredible Vince! I have been struggling with this for approximately a year as we’ve joined a new church and the Worship Team and Director are incredible, however, he seems to rely heavily on songs from Hillsong, Bethel, Jesus Culture, Elevation etc and if I’m honest I really appreciate and have purchased iTunes of many of the songs myself. I try to discern and seek Scripture that supports the lyrics, as not all of the songs the aforementioned groups do are heretical or aposty. What I’m really struggling with for example if Planned Parenthood were to sell a product of something I really like, would I purchase that one product? As a strong pro-life Christian, I would not buy just that one product because it would support Planned Parenthood’s mission. I think I need to evaluate just singing that “one” song from Bethel because via CCLI they receive financial support from our Worship Team singing that one song.
Please consider adding this to your reviews!
I’ll share a link to consider as it seems to cover Word of Faith and Prosperity Gospel and many of the others. We definitely need examples/proof that those we question are truly engaging in these practices
Jodi Schulteis
Here’s the link to consider for more info, keep scrolling as there are many listed
https://churchwatchcentral.com/2019/04/10/bethel-and-their-apostolic-grave-sucking-culture-still-continues/
Robert Dona
I’ve come across the site only recently and I think it is a great resource. Thank you for this site. Regarding this particular subject, I note that many great old hymns have teachings or lyrics that are not fully supported by scripture, but they do give warm fuzzy feelings about heaven etc., and we’ve grown to accept these hymns (e.g., “I come to the garden alone”). Also, I’m wondering if we would be setting a bar too high when lyrics cannot be fully 100% compliant with orthodox eschatology, theology, Christology, soiteriology, etc. Lyrics by necessity are limited to the length of song. In any case, I support this idea of briefly evaluating the theology of the church or singers, but mainly sticking with evaluate lyrics of the songs. God bless you brother!
Steve Barhydt
I have to agree with Neal. It’s not necessary. I would go a step further than he did and say that, in my opinion, it would be detrimental. (In particular the ” “Berean Test”-like examination of artist theology.” concept)
As I have often said, the strength and value of this website is that every song stands alone.
If a song CLEARLY supports an unbiblical teaching; condemn it, expose it, and lower it’s score. I will (and have) whole-heartedly agree with you) . I emphasize CLEARLY because often I believe that the anti-Bethel/Hillsongs crowd “reads into” many songs meanings that simply are not there. A song should not be penalized because someone COULD misinterpret it. (Especially when that someone is interpreting the song with preconceived bias against the artist or a group that the artist is associated with.)
Nearly every doctrinal verse in the Bible has been misinterpreted or misused at some time in the past and, yet, we accept every verse as the inspired Word of God. We do so because we understand the CONTEXT of the verse. Most often, in my opinion, the misunderstanding of a song lyric does not hold up when the context of the song is taken into consideration. And, no, I’m am not equating the inspired Scriptures to song lyrics!
You already say in your “CRITERIA FOR EVALUATING CHRISTIAN MUSIC”…
“Also, a high score does not necessarily endorse the theology of said artist. For example, Hillsong is well-known for promoting the Word of Faith and New Apostolic Reformation movements, both of which are unbiblical in my view. They also received many high scoring reviews, some of which are 10/10. We should all do our own due diligence to examine the theology of artists.”
This same kind of issue has come up on this website before. Most notably, in my memory, was a comment from Kat on Sept. 25, 2019 on Bethel’s “No Longer Slaves”
Here is your comment back to me at that time…
“As I thought and prayed on Kat’s commentary, looking for Scripture to help me, I came across Philippians 1:15-18. It explains how the Apostle Paul rejoices, whether the Gospel is preached out of pretense or with a genuine heart. He rejoices because Christ is proclaimed.
This aligns with my current focus on this website: to allow each song’s lyrics to stand or fall on its own merits, outside of the lyricists’ own personal views. I also have a statement in the Evaluation Criteria, four paragraphs from the top, that suggests “We should all do our own due diligence to examine the theology of artists.” As you stated, there are other websites that discuss this topic.
The “running disclaimer” is out!”
*****end of quote****
If you change anything, I would side with racefangurl that you ” put links to other sites’ evaluation of the artist’s theology”. (However not in the reviews of the songs themselves. Your “Resources” page would be perfect.)
Vince,
As I have said before, I believe that this website is a God-given ministry and vitally important to the Church. One of the reasons it is essential is because it does NOT get wrapped up in doctrinal disputes.
Don’t get caught in the trap that is being laid for you. You will never make the anti-Bethel/Hillsongs crowd happy until you give all of their music a 0 score and inform people to never sing their songs again.
Keep your focus on your purpose for creating this wonderful tool in the first place.
Mel
While I understand Steve’s and Neil’s comment, I do think adding this feature will benefit greatly – especially to those new in the Word and those searching. For me it’s simple, music and worship draws one closer to a relationship with Christ – the music in question and all music does exactly that, draws us – my concern is that this music (even though receiving a 10/10 rating) may draw the unwarned into not just the music, but the root of the music as well. Ezekiel 33:6 says: “But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the horn to warn the people, and the sword comes and takes away a life, then that one will be taken away in his iniquity, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.” If we are teaching, preaching, instructing, etc…we are the watchman, and we must provide the warning.
Vince Wright
Thank you all for your comments!
It’s clear that no matter what decision I make, someone won’t be happy. If I go with the Resources page, then I’ll be accused of failing to do everything in my power to warn people about the dangers of artists, contrary to Ezekiel 33:6. If I create the artist profile page, then I’ll be caving to the anti-Hillsong/Bethel/Elevation crowd, inviting dissention on theological issues, contrary to 1 Corinthians 1:10. Whatever I decide, I’ll go against Scripture!
As the owner of The Berean Test, my primary consideration is the target audience. What kind of person does this website attract? Many of you came to The Berean Test because you searched via Google, Yahoo, or Bing to know if such and such song is Biblical. You didn’t come here because you were interested in my thoughts on artist theology.
Is it possible that new believers susceptible to false doctrines will stumble upon The Berean Test? Sure. It’s also possible that we’re on an alien planet, thinking that we’re talking through a network of computers while aliens experiment on our bodies. It’s impossible to make decisions on what if’s, maybes, and perhaps without hard facts. If there are new believers susceptible to the throngs of false teaching that visit my website, I’m unaware of them. Yet, I feel compelled to say something about it.
Based on what I’ve read in this discussion (and a few emails) I believe that the “Resources” idea is the best solution, inspired by racefangurl. I’m considering expanding the red text that appears after the introduction of each review to say, “Also, I strongly encourage you to examine potential dangers in [insert artist]’s theology by visiting [link]Resources[end link].” This text would only appear in reviews where I have resources on the artist. I can also provide some text and a link to “Resources” to my current “evaluation criteria” page where I briefly address questionable theology. My review process would not change.
I know how Steve feels about disclaimers, but I already have one that asks others to read my “about” and “evaluation criteria” pages before reading my reviews. This would expand upon existing text and provide a subtle hint that something is amiss.
What are your thoughts on this approach?
-Vince Wright
Neal Cruco
Vince,
I am not opposed to this approach, but I must ask what has changed. You have rejected such a disclaimer before on the grounds of Philippians 1:15-18 (https://www.thebereantest.com/bethel-worship-no-longer-slaves#comment-954). I’m just wondering what has changed to make you consider it again.
Vince Wright
Neal,
Great question!
I’m torn between my stance on The Berean Test’s intended purpose and direction with the lack of saying anything about artist questionable theology. I’m not sure the best way to go about it, so I’m throwing a few ideas out there to see what people think.
Another possibility is to expand the “evaluation criteria” text where I talk about artist theology with a sentence or two about the “Resources” page.
-Vince Wright
Steve Barhydt
I am not opposed to a “Find out what Hillsongs believes” section in your “Resources” page. (Although good luck finding a website that is not a “hit piece” made by another of the anti-Bethel/Hillsongs, anti-Charismatic crowd)
I am diametrically opposed to any “theology analysis” on the song reviews themselves that is outside of the lyrics of the song being reviewed.
As to using the “watchman” analogy in Ezekiel 33 to warn against the faulty teaching of these groups, I believe that this is the worst kind of hermeneutics. A classic example of “cherry picking” verse 6 to make a point.
Ezekiel 33 (KJV)
1Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
*****end quote*****
The context clearly shows that the admonition to Ezekiel (vs 7-9) was about warning wicked men who were continuing their wicked ways and the responsibility God placed on him. It’s about sin and damnation.
This has nothing to do with disputable doctrines.
I know some would say that Bethel, Hillsongs, and the like are “wicked men who were continuing their wicked ways” but this is blatantly false.
I refer back to yet another thread on this website when Phil Wickham was attacked for even being associated to Bethel and my comments at the time…
https://www.thebereantest.com/phil-wickham-living-hope
Both of these groups consistently produce songs that are Biblically sound (as is evident by this very website) and lift up the name of Jesus.
When judging the ministries of others it is wise to take the approach of the Apostle Paul in Philippians 1
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
I am NOT in 100% agreement with some of the doctrines that these groups have been associated with (most noticeably Word of Faith and Dominion theology) but it is important to note that these are NOT soteriological doctrines.
When it comes to salvation, to my knowledge, they both preach “Jesus Christ, and him crucified” as the only way to get to Heaven.
*****end of quote******
If you are going to offer “theology analysis” about Charismatic groups such as Hillsongs, Bethel, etc. are you going to do the same for Cessationist groups? What about Calvinistic songwriters? or Arminian? or Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, or Amillennial? What about Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, etc?
Where does it end? I can guarantee that you have some visitors to this website that strongly hold to and, just as strongly, disagree with each of the above.
Many, but not all, of the differences in the abovementioned groups are, in my opinion, Romans 14 issues.
These is a time and place for theological debates (even over “non-essential” issues). However, this website does not need to be that place.
Vince Wright
Steve,
Thank you for your comments as always.
First, let me reaffirm that I’m not changing my review process. Reviews, as they always have been, will focus on lyrics apart from artist theology.
Second, I’m no longer interested in creating a separate “Artist Profile” section, where I examine an artist’s theology. As I prayfully ponder all the points offered on this topic, I see little upside and much downside to including this. While it’s Important to discuss artist theology, I agree: The Berean Test isn’t the place for it.
Third, yes, I wish to avoid non-essential doctrinal disputes as much as possible. However, my reviews contain some theological stances that I believe are either incorrect or dangerous to the body of Christ. I’ve spoken openly against Word of Faith, prosperity Gospel, and universalism in many of my reviews and harshly penalized song lyrics that promote these ideas. This makes it difficult to completely avoid doctrinal disputes in the comments section. Thankfully, discussion has been mostly civil, although I recently closed comments on Cory Ausbury’s Reckless Love.
Fourth, another possibility is to link to resources that either point to the artist’s beliefs or media that, much like Berean Test reviews, offer a balanced analysis of artist theology. For example, I found Allen Parr’s video on Hillsong, Bethel, and Elevation Worship enlightening. To your point, His first point is that any article, video, or blog post on theological examination (including his) is ultimately subjective. Another potential article is Got Question’s take on Hillsong. To your point, I wasn’t able to find anything else that wasn’t a Hillsong hit piece!
This new Resources section should be prefaced with a blurb such as “These articles, videos, and blog posts are balanced opinions on artist theology. Though outside the scope of Berean Test reviews, it is important to research potentially dangerous and unbiblical doctrine taught by artists.”, I think it will add value to those few people interested in learning more about what they teach.
Finally, I think the anti-Hillsong/Bethel/Elevation Worship crowd envisions something like this. Newbie Christian visits The Berean Test. They find an article that gave 10/10 rating to their favorite Bethel song. So, they visit the Bethel website. Unaware of their questionable theology, they join a Bethel church and begin to learn their teachings. They believe in the Prosperity Gospel. Disappointed that God doesn’t say “yes” to their professed faith, they leave Christianity because Bethel lied to them. Fault is pointed in my direction because The Berean Test didn’t warn them about Bethel’s teachings. Therefore, from their perspective, I need to do something about it so that it doesn’t happen again. I’m not doing everything that I can do to use The Berean Test to warn them. I know that their teachings are questionable and leading others astray and I said nothing on The Berean Test about it. I’ve neglected my Christian duty to warn them. At least, that’s the sense that I get from them.
-Vince Wright
Steve Barhydt
Vince,
I feel your heart in this and I appreciate the concern that you have.
I disagree that you “said nothing on The Berean Test about it.” and “neglected my Christian duty to warn them.”
My concern is that it will never be enough to placate the anti-Hillsong/Bethel/Elevation Worship crowd as long as you are giving the songs themselves high ratings.
The vast majority of the comments that come against these songs have very little to do with the lyrics themselves (when taken in context) and, more often than not, contain no (contextually-cited) Scriptures to defend their opinions.
When doctrinal issues do come up within the lyrics, I’m in a 100% agreeance that they should be dealt with within the reviews themselves. However, when commentators insert doctrinal issues into the discussion that are outside of the scope of lyrics, that is deviating from the purpose of this website and, in my opinion, something should be done to steer the conversation back into the lyrics.
Once again, I am not opposed to blurbs on the “Resources” page. I believe this should be done for every artist/group (where available) not just the Hillsongs/Bethel/etc..
I would encourage you to also include links to the “Faith Statements” of the groups themselves, if available, because most of the self-proclaimed “Defenders of the Church” websites are highly biased in how they describe what these groups really believe.
By the way, I agree that Got Question’s take on Hillsong is pretty fair and balanced. Their take on Bethel, not so much 🙂
God bless, my brother. I still love the site.
Vince Wright
Steve,
Thank you for your comments!
Yes, much of the comments are directed towards the artist and not the lyrics. My standard response is to point them to my Criteria Evaluation page that everyone is supposed to read before perusing my reviews.
I put together updated red text and a sample section within my Resources page that incorporates many of the things we’ve talked about with consideration to others who participated in this discussion. The expanded red text will appear for artists that I’ve provided resources. Included is one entry for Hillsong with intentions to add all artists I’ve reviewed. I’d like to know what you and others think.
Red text (after review introduction and before the start of each review):
Note to new users: This is a different kind of review site! Read About the Berean Test and Evaluation Criteria prior to reading this review. Also, I strongly encourage you to examine the blessings and potential dangers in this artist’s theology by visiting Resources.
Sample text (on Resources page):
Websites to Examine Artist Theology
These articles, videos, and blog posts contain artist beliefs and balanced opinions on artist theology. Though outside the scope of Berean Test reviews, it is important to research potentially dangerous and unbiblical doctrine taught by artists. This will help you make an informed decision on supporting/not supporting these artists, including song purchases, royalties, donations, and attending their services. I’ll continue to expand this list as time permits.
Hillsong:
–Statement of Faith – Contains Hillsong’s core beliefs.
–Hillsong’s vision statement – Provides information on the type of church Hillsong envisions.
–The Beat – Provides a balanced overview of Hillsong, Elevation Worship, and Bethel Music released by former worship pastor Allen Parr. Allen Parr talks about the blessings and dangers that these artists provide. Keep in mind that not everything he says applies to all three groups.
–Got Questions – Another balanced overview of Hillsong’s theology with points not mentioned in Allen Parr’s video.
-Vince Wright
Steve Barhydt
Vince,
I believe that this is a very good approach to the situation at hand. 🙂
Questionable teachings can be further researched by those who wish to do so without dragging the review process into the “bottomless pit” of doctrinal discussions.
Vince Wright
Steve,
Thank you for your comments!
I hear what you’re saying. To decide on a resource, I must fact-check each claim and decide if its benefits outweigh the errors discovered (if any). Especially when balanced examinations are hard to come by!
It might be helpful to direct my audience to examine these claims for themselves. I could say: “Though outside the scope of Berean Test reviews, it is important to research potentially dangerous and unbiblical doctrine taught by artists. It is equally important to fact-check articles, videos, and blog posts that criticize artist teachings.”
-Vince Wright
Mel
Vince, thank you for your Servant’s heart and I know this is tough, but I think your approach is well thought out and honoring God and maintains your vision for this work.
JM
Wow, this has generated a lot of discussion quickly! Vince, to take into consideration Neal / Steve’s points about these being treated like ‘hit pieces’ against certain groups (Hillsong, elevation, bethel, etc…), is there a way to do it where every artist gets a profile that is a summary / bullet list of their positions? That’s how I originally interpreted your post – trying to keep things as neutral / objective as possible.
Vince Wright
JM,
At this point, I’ve abandoned the idea altogether. At the moment, my leaning is towards expanding the “resources” section with articles that take a balanced approach towards artist doctrinal teachings. I have a few examples that I’ll post in my reply to Steve’s latest helpful comment.
-Vince Wright
trougot
Valid reasoning all-round…. JM, Melissa, Racefangurl, Jodi, Robert, Mel, I share your concerns & associate more readily with your view’s towards this & obviously we agree the need exist!… There is in my mind no question about the need that something has to be added, but it does not have to be huge changes. But it does have to be a helpful directive from us as professing Christians, to those yet seeking, growing or are confused and so forth. Doing nothing will be irresponsible as a Christian.
Vince I do want to more directly focus on only what you & Steve said.
Vince what you said about what is envisioned & could happen, is a fact a Christian can and should not ignore. So I’m wholeheartedly against abandoning all & clearly many here agree there is a lack or need for something more, which will be helpful for so many. Very important Vince, your Soul is not being stirred for nothing!
Steve I do not want to go into a long address about everything you said, some I agree with & others not so much. But regardless, I do wish to focus on just your closing sentence … [unquote] “These is a time and place for theological debates (even over “non-essential” issues). However, this website does not need to be that place.” … There is a saying in my country translated as; ” Be careful for the guy walking with the Bible underneath his arm”. This off course will be coming from someone who does not place Christ central in their lives. We as Christians understand or rather should understand that we do not place God in a corner & just for special occasions; we must constantly strive to live & breath every Word of Him, declaring it proudly! The saying immediately sprung to mind, when I read what you have written. I do feel you might have meant it in the best sense possible, but still for me it does not feel like the preferred utterance or view I would take in front of an omnipresent God …. Again for me, it comes across as … God, I as a Christian at this moment has the opportunity to inform someone about possible danger, based on something I present. But it does not 100% fit in with what or how I want to present this which I would like to focus on…. It sounds wrong, does it not? & does it not in a sense, answer us as to what should be done?
Steve Barhydt
trougot,
I believe that you have misunderstood what I meant by my closing remark.
I made it clear that I am not opposed to a “Find out what HIllsongs believes” blurb on the “Resources” page. I believe this should be done for every artist/group not just the ones who are currently being attacked for what they supposedly believe.
I’m not even opposed to, as Vince said above about his blurb on the top of each review,
“I know how Steve feels about disclaimers, but I already have one that asks others to read my “about” and “evaluation criteria” pages before reading my reviews. This would expand upon existing text and provide a subtle hint that something is amiss”
Again provided that this is done for every review.
However, doctrinal discussions (especially in non-essential doctrines) can quickly become a “bottomless pit” whether you are talking to a new Christian, an unbeliever, or reviewing a song. Great care must be taken to avoid this pitfall.
This website (nor any individual website) cannot be expected to fully evaluate every doctrine of every artist and every doctrine of every group every artist is associated with to see if their teachings are “orthodox”.
Who defines “orthodox” (again especially in non-essential doctrines)? I can guarantee you that Vince and I disagree on some doctrines. I don’t even agree with my younger self from 30 years ago!!
The central purpose of this website is “Analyzing lyrics in Jesus’ name” and it does a fantastic job of doing that. I believe that that purpose was impressed upon Vince by an omnipresent, omnipotent God Who knew that these doctrinal issues exists but desired for us to have a tool that rose above them.
I don’t wish to see that purpose defeated by a “running disclaimer” included within the review section on every song about false teachings that a group may have that have absolutely nothing to do with the song being reviewed. Fortunately, Vince is not going in this direction.
trougot
John 17:18 “As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.”
There is another saying, slightly adapted; which goes like this … You may be the only Jesus some people ever get to see & with that, you may be the only Bible some people ever get to read.
Do we not want others to receive and take more than what is simply required, away from us. Shall we provide half an answer, whilst knowing the full answer?
Ash
I think a central collection of information about what artists/their churches believe would be really helpful. Sometimes it can take a lot of work to discover an artist’s background, and that often helps provide context to lyrics (what they intended). I agree with those who caution against a straight black-balling approach. But it’s also helpful information to have on hand. In many ways, pointing out theological positions represented in a song or by an artist/church, when done across the board, can be more helpful than divisive. While those who disagree with a theological position may be turned off to a song/artist promoting it, those who hold to it will be encouraged in their use of that music.
Trougot
We all have and word our opinions or insights differently, but I gather it is clear that we all place high value in what you Vince have accomplished & are doing with providing this crucial service to His Kingdom. We all similarly will agree that none of us suggest in any way to have the overall structure of this website changed, into something new or unrecognizable from your original intent and calling hereto. The mere fact that you are allowing this to be openly addressed, is like it has been stated within a few comments already, a wonderful showing of your heart & pure intend on trying to do what is most pleasing to our Lord. It is commendable, an example & highly appreciated!
I did not get the feeling that anyone had the intend that doctrinal issues must become the predominant focus, or a major discussion. Additionally no expectations has been raised to have the Religious stance of each artist becoming a secondary review process to the extreme in itself.
Focus should definitely remain on song review & changes should only cause minimal impact on overall structure, work & feel of thebereantest. I think it is good enough that which I understand to be currently the leading idea going forward, with something in the sense of a bold insert at the top of each song review stating something like ” Stay informed regarding artist’s belief, association and/or dangers there-off on my resource page, with information & links towards external content containing additional insight “.
Expanding the resource page with this and maybe other helpful content, I feel will cause the minimum impact, not detract from the song review, be helpful to all visitors & succeed in addressing most concerns. Should you yourself later feel you wish to contribute your own insights, you could still do this without applying further additional changes.
Vince Wright
Trougot,
Wow, I’m humbled. Thank you for your kind words! I’m starting to realize that this website isn’t just a place for me to express my thoughts. I’m building a community of people who share the same goals as I. In the past, I unilaterally made decisions to change the direction of this website; However, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this open discussion format. I plan to use it again for future decisions!
Initially, my thought was to have a separate section on artist theology, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it would distract away from The Berean Test’s intended purpose. I think most (if not all) of us are happy with my proposed solution.
Bear in mind that I probably won’t link to sources that only warn and don’t talk about things that artists get right (e.g; “hit pieces”). There will probably be articles that you found valuable that I won’t add as a “Resource” because of their approach. Almost all my articles are glowing reviews or balanced examinations where I comment on lyrics that are good, questionable, or unbiblical. Only a handful of reviews scored lower than 2, usually because it was completely unclear, or the central point is unbiblical with few redeeming qualities. I might consider a hit piece link if the artist’s central theology is equally heretical or unbiblical.
-Vince Wright
Vince Wright
Trougot.
Thank you for your comments!
I think my present solution, to expand the red text and add resources for people interested, will have the greatest impact for people who aren’t aware of questionable teachings without altering my focus. It gives people an opportunity to do their own due diligence, that something might be amiss with the artist, with minimal distraction away from this site’s purpose.
-Vince Wright
Your Mom!
Vince I think let God take care of those with false doctrine. The church should be united and not attacking one another. Perhaps write an article on how to rely on the Holy Spirit to provide wisdom, revelation, and discernment when deciding on what to allow into ones life by sight or hearing.
Vince Wright
Hey Mom!
I think that God is drawing me to say something about artist theology. I have a pretty good idea of how to do it, and it’s not my initial proposal! I’ve discovered that oftentimes, it is people that God uses to “take care of those with false doctrine”.
-Vince Wright
racefangurlgurl
He said he plans to use the resource page to help people use those things by providing links there talking about the artist theology, whether it’s their church statement of beliefs or other articles and even videos that aren’t hit pieces.